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Deplorable Dave's avatar

I think Epstein was (obviously) an intelligence asset and everybody wants to wash their hands of the issue. There's nothing good that can come of exposing a "list" because a "list" proves nothing, so we get nowhere for a lot of grief and upsetting CIA operations agents. Bam Bondi has a loose mouth. Maybe she will grow up now and produce some (any) results.

Anyway, Michael Shellenberger is the Epstien expert and he says "Strong evidence suggests that Epstein was part of a sex blackmail operation tied to intelligence agencies. Visitor logs show that William Burns, who served as CIA Director under President Biden, visited Epstein’s New York townhouse multiple times. The Wall Street Journal reported those visits in 2023 based on Epstein’s private calendar. In 2017, Alex Acosta, the Justice Department official who gave Epstein his 2008 plea deal, told Trump transition officials that he was told to back off Epstein because he “belonged to intelligence.” The Justice Department later admitted that all eleven months of Acosta’s emails from that period had disappeared."...

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romeotwoseven's avatar

Questions:

1.If you were involved in a covert intel op, would you write out the name of your handler and when you're meeting in your calendar? Covert really means keeping it secret and not for prying eyes or accidental viewing.

2. Does anyone really think that someone as high level as Burns would be Epstein's handler? Dir CIA out the streets meeting operatives?

3. What did Burns do before he was Dir CIA under Biden? I believe he was a diplomat and during the time of the alleged Epstein visits he was heading up the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

4. If Burns had any involvement in intel prior to Biden appointing him Dir CIA, wouldn't he know that Epstein was radioactive (as a pedo) and keep personal distance and, instead, send a lacky to meet with him?

5. Would Burns, assuming intel ops, meet a pedo in a public place like NYC? Why not helo into Epstein's island and keep it all on the downlow?

Sorry but I feel like Shellenberger - with who's work I am familiar - is selling more salacious stories by innuendo. Like, "there's the smoking gun. Burns! CIA!", except Burns wasn't CIA at the time. He was a guy in charge of lots of money, they type E liked to network with

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romeotwoseven's avatar

My conclusion: I think Burns was looking for donations to the foundation he was running; from Epstein and/or from Epstein's contacts.

If there's enough money to be had, ugly personal habits of the source can be excused a little bit

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Gern Blanston's avatar

Epstein committed suicide. He attempted suicide 3 weeks before he tried again and succeeded. No one would risk sending an assassin to kill a man who was going to do the job himself. Tartiglione (Epstein's cellmate during his first attempt) demanded the video from the suicide attempt so it could be shown he was trying to help Epstein when he discovered him. After his first attempt, Epstein didn't scream to his lawyers "SOMEONE TRIED TO KILL ME!". He requested Tartiglione for his cellmate when he was out of suicide watch. Further, Epstein changed his will into a beneficiary trust 2 days before he killed himself.

Plenty of questions remain, but not this one.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

I just finished reading the whole official report re; Epstein's death.

The big take away, for me, is that all of the inmates in the same block as Epstein stated, when interviewed by investigators, that no one entered Epstein's cell that night. Apparently, the doors are heavy and noisy enough when opening and closing that the inmates in adjacent cells, and the cell immediately across the hall, would have likely heard it, even if asleep.

Now a conspiracy theorist might say that the inmates feared for their lives and therefore told the investigators what they thought such officials wanted to hear. That's the problem with conspiracy theories, anyone involved not consistent with the conspiracy narrative is said to be part of the conspiracy, for one reason or another. Any evidence that counters the theory is ignored or said to be planted by the conspirators. Conspiracy theories become unfalsifiable in the minds of the theorists. At some point they evolve into articles of unshakable faith.

But wouldn't the inmates report accurately once they were out of the corrections system? They could trade their story of people entering Epstein's cell in the middle of the night that he died for big money. Yes, if the conspiracy theorists are correct, the former inmates would still face danger on the outside for telling the real story. However, inmates are risk accepting people by definition. They could be given protection. Inmates have turned against organized crime with regular frequency since the RICO act began delivering long sentences. They could get even with the system that locked them up, etc. There are motivations to tell the truth, if the truth were that people entered Epstein's cell.

At any rate, the missing minute is irrelevant - and probably just what Bondi said - if no one entered the cell that night.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

Exactly. Inconvenient facts for the conspiracy minded. People commit suicide in jails and prisons all the time. Once Epstein said he was past that, the suicide watch was pulled because there is limited staff/guards and they are needed for all of the other inmates who might kill themselves.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

One more thought from me - if Epstein was killed in jail because he could expose powerful men, why didn't those powerful men kill him before he was in jail when it would have been much easier to do it. The mafia will occasionally take out a member who is facing heavy charges because the mafia is concerned the accused member might cooperate with law enforcement. However, they do the hit prior to the target being jailed. For that matter, powerful people who can have Epstein killed in jail would certainly have killed him when he first tried to blackmail them.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

Final thought - if E was murdered, why are the prison guards still alive? Those guys would be 100% expendable.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

Good job, as always, Andrew. I agree w/you 100%. I have said since day one of Epstein that the whole buffet of conspiracy theories around Epstein are rubbish and based on the usual factors that cause rubbish conspiracy theories to form (see below). To me, Epstein was always a facile, glib, but clever, libertine, with pedo predilections, who applied his quirky personality effectively to make money. He connected many movers and shakers and thought leaders, had them engage in intellectual discussion, share ideas, establish partnerships (including financing), but the primary currency was insider information - sometimes on retreats on his island. With those connections and the info arising from them, only a complete fool would fail to make large sums of money. What Epstein accomplished was actually quite ingenious; simple yet elegant.

The conspiracy theories - many people hate "elites". Epstein was an elite and he surrounded himself with members of the elite class. Epstein was also a pedophile. People hate pedophiles. So people allowed their emotions to overcome their reason. They became an angry irrational mob hoping for an opportunity to prove that all elites are evil - and to bring them all to justice. However, the only suggestion that Epstein was trafficking minors to elites came from Virginia Giuffre (one of the former girls). Her stories contain many internal inconsistencies, and some have been proven to be utterly false, such as her [withdrawn] allegations against Dershowitz. Maxwell was charged only with trafficking minors to Epstein and testimony from the women at her trial was that Epstein abused them. They did not testify that he pimped them out. Epstein was never charged for being a pimp; only personal abuse of the minors. Anyhow, Epstein is also Jewish, which always brings out the worst in the conspiracy theory prone mind. He must be Mossad!

There never was a list of pedo clients; only a list of personal contacts, which was released last Feb. Trump was tossing red meat to his conspiracy minded base when he said he'd release the list. That manipulation for votes has come back to bite him. His team bungled the release that there was no list/no conspiracy (btw I like Trump, but bungled is bungled). The media and social media love to promote salacious stories by innuendo. So they fanned the conspiracy flames too.

Otherwise, what Andrew said.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

Intelligence agencies go where they need to go. Never has there been an intel op that involved the kind of money Epstein had. Never anything so elaborate. In the real world, it's more like a Sicilian Mafia guy hates communism (which is threatening to take over Italy) and the CIA hates communism. The mobster keeps his eyes and ears open and passes info to the CIA. In exchange, the mobster's immigration problems get fixed.

What intelligence could Epstein have gained? He wasn't hanging out with Hamas. Bill Gates writes books with his kooky ideas explicit. Business insider opportunities for trades and investments? Yes. Actionable intel that would be for the security of Israel? Nope. But I get how it all ties into Protocols of Elders of Zion thinking - Israel wants to control everything and get everyone to do their bidding. So they create a massive blackmail op to get all the world leaders under their control.........then what? they celebrate by drinking the blood of gentile babies? There was once an angry failed artist with a funny little mustache that wrote all about it in his book as well.

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David Roberts's avatar

There is something fishy with the government's story here. I agree that Epstein wasn't a run-of-the-mill blackmailer. IMO, this was state-intelligence-agency level stuff. The government's claim that "there is no list" cannot be squared with the facts that there are, the government admits, hours and hours of video. So, create a list of all the people in the video, and release that. Further, there are complete flight logs. Release those. Now, surely, the public may be imagining more corruption than actually took place, but Bondi's rapid swing from "We're going to release everything and it's shocking!" to "Nothing to see here" suggests that pressure was applied from some direction to Trump, Bondi, and/or Patel. Again, maybe there's less here than people are imagining, but it beggars belief that there is NOTHING here.

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romeotwoseven's avatar

So Dershowitz is now saying that there is "a list", sort of.

He says he has seen what he believes is probably "the list" that Bondi was referring to. It contains names of alleged victims and men that they accused. It is not a list of "clients" created and maintained by Epstein or Maxwell. Rather, a list created by the DOJ. He claims has seen this particular list because he was on it at one time.

Dershowitz was accused by Virginia Giuffre of attending events on Epstein's island and having sex with her. Dershowitz was able to prove those accusations to be false by showing irrefutable evidence that he was in a different part of the world when he was accused of being on the island. When Giuffre was interviewed by the FBI she said she had never met Dershowitz.

Dershowitz has explained that there are two problems with that list. First, most of the men on it made the list because they were accused by Giuffre, a proven confabulator. Some minority of the men were accused by other women. Second, some of the women claiming to be victims were not, as they are unable to show any proof whatsoever that they had ever met Epstein. Apparently, the publicity around the case, especially the lawsuit, caused a lot of women to make claims of being victims. These women attempted to join the lawsuit (they were seeking payment). Some are probably mentally ill. This is what happens when a serious matter is allowed to become a public circus. The kooks and grifters come out of the woodwork; that includes the conspiracy peddlers in the media/social media/book writers and sellers.

There is no way the feds can throw the men on "the list" to the angry mob just to satisfy its blood lust. Each accuser would first have to be thoroughly investigated to prove that she really was involved with Epstein. Then each accusation from each proven accuser would have to be thoroughly investigated - and only after a grand jury had heard the evidence and returned a true bill could the names be revealed. Dershowitz is uncertain as to whether or not all of those investigations have been completed for each name. Obviously, he knows it has been concluded in his case - and that was a few years ago. So maybe it has been completed for the rest and there was either nothing to see (i.e. false victim/false accusation) or too little to pursue charges. Again, Dershowitz doesn't know.

My guess is that all investigations were completed and there's nothing to see; no charges to pursue. My thinking is that if the victims and accusations were real, then the perpetrators would fall on both sides of the political spectrum. Some of them would have non-accused political enemies seizing the opportunity to destroy the accused. That has not happened. Bondi should not have waved that red flag in front of the mob bull. She did say something about the list being on her desk and she'd release it after review. I imagine she realized what I explained above.

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John Obidienzo's avatar

Epstein’s family hired renowned pathologist Dr Michael Baden who made a similar anatomical finding to yours, calling his death more likely a homicide by strangulation.

If money wasn’t the motivation for Epstein to potentially black mail, then certainly staying out of prison for the rest of his life might be. Had such a threat come from a clandestine operation conducted by a powerful Nation State, the decision to be facilitator rather than prisoner would be an easy one to make. In this scenario Epstein’s fate would be dependent on his handlers.

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Spectra's avatar

Money laundering including knowing where and when to move funds between accounts is a specialized skill that Epstein allegedly possessed. I recommend Whitney Webb's two volumes of "One Nation Under Blackmail, The Sordid Union Between Intelligence and Organized Crime That Gave Rise to Jeffrey Epstein" -voluminous citations and is a fascinating body of information that is probably better to know than to avoid knowing.

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Joe Foss's avatar

We expected openness with Trump. We expected he would unveil the UFO truth; Clear-up the mars photos without airbrushing; clear-up whether the block boxes were ever found during the 9/11 plane crashes. The FBI refuses to state, other than no, but first responders say FBI agents on the ground at the time say yes; remove and prosecute CIA operatives involved in intimidation of people wanting to reveal free energy systems, UFO secrete details and other nefarious activities by these Government Agencies. Trump has his head people in these agencies and NASA is still airbrushing photos from mars and space; the FBI still refuses to release documents with impunity; and the CIA is active in the US and harassing whistle-blowers. Trump is controlling all of these agencies but there still is no openness. All mouth and no action.

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GAVEMartin's avatar

Finally figured it out between watching the illogical behavior and reactions to Epstein, Smurfing (campaign finance), election rigging,... I believe it has to be the criminality of the banks (not run by the intel agencies but the other way around) being exposed is a risk too great. The whole thing might collapse. That coincides with this talk of replacing Powell with Bessent at the Federal Reserve (we pretend it is about decimal points). I watched this video yesterday, twice. It has me more convinced than ever. It is long but so very important. Lots of history to sort. I was led to this video by Tom Luongo, a finance guy, I have followed for 4 years. I trust him too. The "rich people" serve as conduits. That is what Epstein was and he was taken in, quite young, by former AG Bill Barr's father. I knew that before I watched this. The crime starts with the banks. Everyone else down the chain stays in step or is discarded when they become not useful.

From the video: the banks figured out they could make more money through money laundering than an actual functioning market during Prohibition in America. Cartels / the mob are an important mechanism for this.

https://rumble.com/v6vun37-epstein-e.m.-burlingame-and-john-cullen-tpc-1782.html?e9s=src_v1_sa%2Csrc_v1_ucp_a

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Te Reagan's avatar

Epstein didn’t kill himself. He’s most likely on an island 🏝️ seeding the next generation of government grifters.

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